Posted by Bart M on November 17, 2013 at 4:15am in Off topic
So is there any solid scientific evidence showing that vaccinating children is to be avoided? I'm not looking for circumstantial evidence, and not for scientific work that has been debunked like the famous 1998 andrew wakefield study. I'm also not looking for ethical arguments against vaccinations. I'm looking for valid evidence.
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It was once considered common sense that the sun revolves around the earth. When it comes to complex issues, sometimes heart and common sense can be misleading.
My common sense told me that I should carefully consider both positions based on solid evidence instead of just presuming that "the industry" is evil and out to get us. I much appreciate the input of those who have provided me with good info earlier in this thread. Based on this info, and other sources, I've been able to form an informed opinion.
Pro vax is as iron-clad as the dairy and beef industry in this country. Actually much more because it's so much more profitable. Anti-vax evidence will likely never receive support comparable to what the pharmaceutical industry provides. How could it possibly when it makes no one any money?
Guys, let's stay on topic here. There's plenty of threads on this subject where you can post about circumstantial evidence like profit motive, or raise various ethical issues regarding vaccination. I'd like to ask to keep such comments out of this thread. That's not the rabbit hole I want this discussion to get into.
Have you read a single book by an anti-vaccine author? Most of them are experts in their field with lifetimes of research. Just to go Amazon.com and type "Vaccination" in books. Read some. Then come back and tell me it's not 100% fraud designed to make people sick and stupid.
I would be able to take the claims of the anti-vax crowd with more sympathy if not for the repeated evidence for a crucial misunderstanding that most have when talking about it. Namely that usually anti-vax folk will say "people who take the vaccine get the disease anyway, quite frequently". But, vaccines aren't trumpeted to work like that on an individual basis. The fact that many people still get the disease despite their vaccine mainly signifies the success of the anti-vax movement, because the vaccine only has the chance of working if the significant majority of a population has taken it. At this point I have probably inspired some keyboard mashing or even a stroking of the banhammer's handle, but I implore one to accept that I am not in any way invested in the use of vaccines. I am simply unconvinced. Without a shadow of a doubt a great deal of vaccinations are superfluous and the enthusiasm for them motivated by profit. Basically what I am thinking is that you are all very right in exposing/opposing the conduct at the level of industry, the pointlessness of many new and fear-mongered shots but even given all of that, I haven't seen evidence which nullifies the concept of vaccination itself and the principle on which it works (herd immunity). When I look on the internet for something peer reviewed along the lines of arguing and showing Herd Immunity to be untrue, I can only find blogs and the related cacophony of militant anti-vaxers. A cool head is nowhere to be found on this.
Somewhere earlier in the thread this matter was compared to the resistance met by T Colin Campbell's work. The comparison comes across as quite dishonest to me because T Colin Campbell went like this:
Zealous carnivore ---> Plant-based proselytiser
Whereas with anti-vax stuff the person oddly enough usually has the same opinions about it pre-evidence as they do post-'evidence'. This strikes me as suspect. Are there in fact any medical professionals who practice opposition to the vaccine, perhaps the same kind of lovable rogues like Mcdougall and Esselstyn? Totally prepared to change my mind if the info deserves it, so don't get shouty with me on this.
If you are considering vaccinating your child(ren) a good place to start is reading the packaging information that comes with the vaccines. I also feel that many times reading anti-vax information is very conspiracy-based and like to see hard evidence and facts. But it is hard to know what is fact and what is not, when there is so much propaganda. Reading what's actually in the vaxes and what the listed side effects are is very eye-opening, as is the shocked/outraged reaction you will receive from pediatricians/nurses whom you ask for such information.
Peoples "faith" in vaccination goes back to Polio. You have to research about how the propagation of the idea that polio was "prevented" by vaccination was a complete public relations fraud to understand that. Then the rest fall like dominoes.
Replies
My common sense told me that I should carefully consider both positions based on solid evidence instead of just presuming that "the industry" is evil and out to get us. I much appreciate the input of those who have provided me with good info earlier in this thread. Based on this info, and other sources, I've been able to form an informed opinion.
Well, if we could be honest there's no way anti-vaccination is anywhere near as iron-clad as a plant-based diet. Not even in the same ball park
Pro vax is as iron-clad as the dairy and beef industry in this country. Actually much more because it's so much more profitable. Anti-vax evidence will likely never receive support comparable to what the pharmaceutical industry provides. How could it possibly when it makes no one any money?
What anti-vax books/studies have you read so far?
Have you read a single book by an anti-vaccine author? Most of them are experts in their field with lifetimes of research. Just to go Amazon.com and type "Vaccination" in books. Read some. Then come back and tell me it's not 100% fraud designed to make people sick and stupid.
I would be able to take the claims of the anti-vax crowd with more sympathy if not for the repeated evidence for a crucial misunderstanding that most have when talking about it. Namely that usually anti-vax folk will say "people who take the vaccine get the disease anyway, quite frequently". But, vaccines aren't trumpeted to work like that on an individual basis. The fact that many people still get the disease despite their vaccine mainly signifies the success of the anti-vax movement, because the vaccine only has the chance of working if the significant majority of a population has taken it. At this point I have probably inspired some keyboard mashing or even a stroking of the banhammer's handle, but I implore one to accept that I am not in any way invested in the use of vaccines. I am simply unconvinced.
Without a shadow of a doubt a great deal of vaccinations are superfluous and the enthusiasm for them motivated by profit. Basically what I am thinking is that you are all very right in exposing/opposing the conduct at the level of industry, the pointlessness of many new and fear-mongered shots but even given all of that, I haven't seen evidence which nullifies the concept of vaccination itself and the principle on which it works (herd immunity). When I look on the internet for something peer reviewed along the lines of arguing and showing Herd Immunity to be untrue, I can only find blogs and the related cacophony of militant anti-vaxers. A cool head is nowhere to be found on this.
Somewhere earlier in the thread this matter was compared to the resistance met by T Colin Campbell's work. The comparison comes across as quite dishonest to me because T Colin Campbell went like this:
Zealous carnivore ---> Plant-based proselytiser
Whereas with anti-vax stuff the person oddly enough usually has the same opinions about it pre-evidence as they do post-'evidence'. This strikes me as suspect.
Are there in fact any medical professionals who practice opposition to the vaccine, perhaps the same kind of lovable rogues like Mcdougall and Esselstyn? Totally prepared to change my mind if the info deserves it, so don't get shouty with me on this.
If you are considering vaccinating your child(ren) a good place to start is reading the packaging information that comes with the vaccines. I also feel that many times reading anti-vax information is very conspiracy-based and like to see hard evidence and facts. But it is hard to know what is fact and what is not, when there is so much propaganda. Reading what's actually in the vaxes and what the listed side effects are is very eye-opening, as is the shocked/outraged reaction you will receive from pediatricians/nurses whom you ask for such information.
Peoples "faith" in vaccination goes back to Polio. You have to research about how the propagation of the idea that polio was "prevented" by vaccination was a complete public relations fraud to understand that. Then the rest fall like dominoes.
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